Ukraine's Ambassador for Belarus Issues: Tsikhanouskaya's Position is Definitely Not Pacifist
How many Wagner mercenaries with new names have already integrated into the security structures of the Belarusian regime, why there is no national Belarusian unit in the Russian army, and whether Belarus will pay reparations after the war, was discussed in an interview with "Apostrophe" by Ukraine's Ambassador for Belarus Issues, Yaroslav Chornohor.
Yaroslav Chornohor
— Mr. Ambassador, you mentioned in an interview that you were appointed to this position due to your expertise on Belarus. How did you react to this appointment in general?
— In fact, it was interesting from the very beginning. Initially, they didn't specify what exact position it was. Rather, they said there was a direction for which a specialist was needed. In fact, I didn't know if I would work on staff, or if I would be invited as a consultant or advisor on a voluntary basis. Then it became clear that participation in establishing communication with Belarusian democratic forces was necessary.
— How did your appointment process go?
— There was an interview with Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs Yevhen Perebyinis, then with the head of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs himself. After that, together with Andriy Sybiha, there was an interview at the President's Office on Bankova Street. There, the three of us held a meeting and discussed everything. And finally, after all that, the President and the Minister made the decision on the appointment.
Yaroslav Chornohor and Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya
— Among your tasks as Ambassador-at-Large is working with the Belarusian opposition, assisting civilian Belarusians and Belarusian military personnel fighting for Ukraine. Let's start from the end: how many Belarusians are fighting on our side of the front today?
— This information is not subject to disclosure. If you want to know, send a request to the Ministry of Defense.
— What if we turn the question around and ask you, how many Belarusians are fighting for Russia?
— This question is known to us, not least thanks to Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya's visit. As part of this visit, there was a meeting with the leadership of the Coordinating Headquarters for the Treatment of Prisoners of War. Since the structure is closely linked to the HUR (Main Intelligence Directorate), they provided figures. If I'm not mistaken, it's about 2,800 people. 400 or more of them have already left this earth, transitioning to another world thanks to Ukrainian warriors.
— Are they all scattered among different units, or do they have national formations, like the Kastus Kalinouski Battalion with us?
— They have no national unit. You must understand that a regime like the "Union State" exists between Russia and Belarus. Within its framework, no single nation can be singled out. This is generally very characteristic of Russians. They don't see any nation separate from themselves. Here a big question arises: what is this "Russian people"? It's a somewhat mythical concept.
There is a whole series of conquered peoples living on the territory of the entity currently called the Russian Federation. Most of them have no status at all. Suppressed, colonized.
I believe that the logical development will be the fragmentation of these territories — the usual logic of imperial collapse. Because the Russian Federation is a federation only on paper, when in fact it is an imperial entity.
Fallen Belarusian fighters. Photo: Telegram / tsikhanouskaya
— Another one of your tasks is assisting civilian Belarusians. In an interview with our Belarusian colleagues, you mentioned unblocking accounts for Belarusians. That, supposedly, there are difficulties due to Belarusians being placed, along with Russians, on a blacklist of people supporting aggression. How do we resolve this issue? Imagine: I am a Belarusian who came to you for help, and I say: "Mr. Yaroslav, help me with my account."
— Accounts are unblocked and opened if, for example, you have a military ID. Then an account will be opened for you. Or if you have a permanent or temporary residence permit. Proof that you are legally present on the territory of Ukraine. Some procedures and checks need to be passed.
This is done to prevent Ukrainian funds from falling into the hands of the aggressor or co-aggressor. I think this issue will be resolved somehow over time. Those Belarusians who are legally in Ukraine and spend money on the territory of our state should not experience problems using their own funds.
— Perhaps then a bill should be initiated in this context? So that civilian Belarusians don't have to constantly walk around with documents... Because sometimes I see on social networks how civilian citizens of Belarus say they live in Ukraine and everything is great. Only one problem: they can't open a bank account...
— This is not the task of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, but we will talk to people's deputies. They are also studying this issue. It also depends on the position of the National Bank. This issue has many levels. Including the government level.
— You also spoke about plans to create an interdepartmental coordination group of Belarusians in Ukraine. Who will join it on both sides and when is this group planned to be created?
— It is possible that a large coordination group will be created with the participation of the Ukrainian side and Belarusian democratic forces. I am not a supporter of creating formal bodies that exist for the sake of existence itself.
In fact, after Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya's visit, we have already established normal communications with the APK (United Transitional Cabinet), Tsikhanouskaya's Office, Pavel Latushka and his NAU (National Anti-Crisis Management), and Belpol, who send their requests for communication on various issues, as well as proposals for sanctions and problematic issues for Belarusians.
It all flows to me, and then we discuss it with the relevant bodies. Some of it concerns the security sector, the migration service. This is a Ukrainian-Belarusian format.
There is also an interdepartmental, purely Ukrainian format. There is a need to discuss specifically how to resolve the issue of expired documents or permanent residence permits for foreign citizens who live here and are interested in Ukraine. This includes both Belarusian volunteers and ethnic Belarusians who have lived on our territory for a long time.
Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya, Andriy Sybiha, and Pavel Latushka. Photo: Telegram / tsikhanouskaya
— Political scientist Yevhen Magda said in one broadcast that Tsikhanouskaya, following her visit to Kyiv, could contribute to the recruitment of Belarusians into the Ukrainian army, for example. That is, to do something more tangible than declarations and statements in the Ukrainian capital. Is she already doing this? What do you say in general about Mr. Yevhen's words?
— On the part of Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya personally and her team, there is no opposition to attracting Belarusians to our army. Forming military units is not their task, but ours. It would be good if Sviatlana's support for Ukraine transformed into assistance in recruiting for our army.
As far as I know, Sviatlana donates to the Armed Forces of Ukraine from her personal funds. In Warsaw, she participated in tactical medicine training. Her team collected and transferred more than one batch of aid to Ukraine. Of course, this aid is not on the level of Himars or Bayraktar. But some aid is being transferred.
It is recalled that last year and the year before, at the Ostroh forum, structures of Belarusian democratic forces handed over vehicles to volunteers.
Perhaps Tsikhanouskaya's visit will inspire some part of the Belarusian democratic community to materially support Belarusian volunteers at the front in Ukraine. I would be glad of that.
— So, this pacifism, characteristic of the vast majority of so-called Russian liberals, is absent in the environment of the Belarusian political opposition today?
— Tsikhanouskaya's current position is definitely not pacifist. In 2020-2022, she was somewhat detached regarding the war in Ukraine, but after the full-scale invasion, we see that Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya has moved from humanitarian participation and expressions of solidarity to recognizing that this war is a factor in regional security.
She has an understanding that one of the paths to Belarus's liberation is the armed path. During her visit to the World War II museum, Tsikhanouskaya awarded a number of Ukrainian and Belarusian figures, including volunteers.
She awarded medals to representatives of the BVA (Belarusian Liberation Army). We saw members of this formation next to her. This organization traces its roots back to the times of the BNR (Belarusian People's Republic). And together, they can be strong allies of Ukraine in the future.
— Tell us how this visit was prepared. Because we heard Lukashenka's words about his readiness to meet with President Zelenskyy, and then Tsikhanouskaya arrives in our capital shortly after. Shed some light on the process of preparing her visit.
— Everything did not happen instantly. The President of Ukraine met with Sviatlana back on January 25 in Vilnius. There he invited her to Kyiv.
Then work began on preparing the visit. The Ukrainian authorities needed to understand what issues would be discussed, whom they would meet with, and in what format.
One of the conditions for the visit to take place was the appointment of someone authorized to work with Belarusian democratic forces. Again, so that it wouldn't be a visit for the sake of a visit. Hypothetically, Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya could have come in March. Such an option existed. But what would she have talked about then? In that case, the meeting would have been more symbolic. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs did not have an authorized person for communications at that time.
It was very coincidental that the prepared visit fell precisely on those statements from the current Belarusian regime. Naturally, Tsikhanouskaya's visit does not mean that we recognize her as the President of Belarus. For us, she is the head of the United Transitional Cabinet and the leader of the Belarusian democratic forces.
She is not a monopolist: there are other groups – they also have their views. Currently, their 4th convocation of the Coordination Council is already starting to work there.
It is important for us that they are not anti-Ukrainian. And Tsikhanouskaya leads the most structured formation of Belarusian democratic forces and has recognition in the Western world.
— Oh, they even divided this Council by convocations? A full-fledged state format...
— Yes, there is a proto-parliament, a proto-government. It is precisely because of this that communication with Tsikhanouskaya's team is desirable. If a window of opportunity for a power transition appears, it becomes clear who to work with and who to support. Any imaginary, amorphous forces are something completely different. The state does not work that way. Proto-state institutions are needed.
— You know, you talk about the existence of alternative centers of gravity among the Belarusian opposition. We don't want them to behave like typical Russian liberals, each having their own principled position and ultimately unable to reach an agreement. So that it's not the case that some advocate for a military scenario to overthrow Lukashenka, while others say: no, diplomacy should be brought to the forefront. There needs to be some consensus among them...
— For democratic circles, having different opinions is a normal phenomenon.
In fact, I would not really compare Belarusian democratic forces with Russian ones. The democratic forces of Belarus remember 2020 and the stolen election results in which Tsikhanouskaya participated. Russians do not have such a figure. There is no person who went through elections and had the support of a large number of people.
If Nemtsov had not been killed by Kadyrov's men in his time, there would have been some hope for Russian democrats. Or at least Navalny. But since neither one nor the other is alive in the world, Russian liberals are now fragmented.
— Let's divide it into points, what will be the essence of your work specifically with the Belarusian political opposition?
— One should not overestimate my role here, as I am a civil servant in the diplomatic department. Belarusian democratic forces existed and will exist. And, finally, they will replace the authoritarian regime in modern Belarus.
My role is to ensure Ukraine's interests in this process, to facilitate the coordination of efforts with international partners.
For us, it is important to have a sovereign, free, independent Belarus on our northern border that does not create problems for us.
— Are there Russian military personnel in Belarusian territory now? How many are there and what are they doing?
— Yes, there are. If I'm not mistaken, two large air defense bases are operating there. There is the "Oreshnik" base, which is currently being built. More than 2,000 Russian servicemen are permanently located on the territory of Belarus. They undergo rotation regularly.
Within the framework of the "Union State" between Moscow and Minsk, there is an agreement on joint air defense. That is precisely what the Russians are doing. They monitor Belarusian airspace.
— The head of the CPD, Andriy Kovalenko, says that all of Alexander Lukashenka's statements about pinpoint mobilization and preparation for war pose no threat. How has the Belarusian army changed qualitatively and quantitatively at this moment? Is there any real dynamic there?
— Military exercises and combat readiness assessments are constantly taking place there. During these exercises, they take into account the Russian experience in the war with us.
We all remember the time when Wagner mercenaries were interned there so that they would not be punished for Prigozhin's rebellion. In Belarus, they gradually integrated into the power structures of the Republic of Belarus. In total, there are more than a hundred of them there. They received Belarusian citizenship and new names. They serve primarily in the internal troops.
The Belarusian dictatorship is transforming its army. They have redistributed their military districts. A new Southern District has been created, which did not exist before. It is clear that they are geographically aimed at us.
A whole system of new special forces centers has been developed within the internal troops. Centers designed to combat sabotage groups and partisan movements. And also aimed at suppressing potential internal public resistance to the regime.
The statement about pinpoint mobilization truly poses no threat to us. This statement is based on the results of their inspections, as they identified shortcomings in a number of military units.
— Shortage of personnel?
— Yes, as I understand it, the current number did not fully correspond to the tasks Minsk sets for itself within the framework of military policy. They have an annual conscription of reserve officers. The structure of military units still has a Soviet legacy, but it already takes into account modern trends. Their brigades can quickly grow to the scale of divisions.
Last year, Belarus received new aircraft from Russia. And before that — "Polonez" systems, which are produced jointly with China. They also actively use drones.
— Which drones? Do they get them from Russians or do they have their own developments?
— They have their own developments. They test Russian ones and purchase Chinese ones.
— So, how many people can the Belarusian co-aggressor afford to conscript into the army today? How large can Lukashenka's army be in total?
— Currently, their military numbers 65-70 thousand. At the same time, they can relatively quickly increase it to 300-350 thousand.
— Are you aware of anything about the deportation of Ukrainian children from the occupied territories through Belarus? How many of our children are there? Has anyone been returned?
— The issue was discussed at the meeting between Tsikhanouskaya and Andriy Sybiha. It was also discussed with Volodymyr Zelenskyy. We are interested in obtaining information about Ukrainian children that may be available to Belarusian democratic forces. They promised to provide us with this information. There will be a conference on this issue in Canada.
There is an agreement between us and the Belarusian democratic forces that the latter will speak on our side when it comes to the abduction of our children.
— Lukashenka's regime actively profits from stolen Ukrainian grain. What can we do as a state to stop this or at least reduce the volumes of the Belarusian dictator's criminal earnings?
— We cannot exert any political influence. Lukashenka's regime is absolutely not independent, as you know. On the international arena, this state is nominally separate, but in fact, it is controlled by the Russian Federation. Therefore, the best recipe here is to continue destroying Russian logistics. Only in this way can the flow of goods from temporarily occupied territories to Belarus and back be stopped.
— Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya said in the same interview that Belarusian partisans have good sources of information that they could share with us if necessary. Do our relevant services cooperate with the Belarusian resistance in this regard?
— Contacts have existed since 2022. I was at a press conference of Belarusian cyber partisans in Ukraine. Even then, in 2022-2023, they spoke about existing contacts.
— In the same interview, Tsikhanouskaya used the term "brotherly peoples" when speaking about the ties between Belarusians and Ukrainians. One brotherly people has already caused us problems. In your opinion, should we look at Belarusians through Tsikhanouskaya's "brotherly" lens?
— If we analyze it from a political-ideological point of view, this term is already somewhat discredited. On the part of Belarusians, it sometimes comes down to speculation that Ukraine, with its activity, encroaches on the role of an older brother. For us, this seems ridiculous. We'd rather be good neighbors than brothers.
— How is Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya regarded in the Belarusian military-volunteer environment?
— A part of the Kalinovites supports her. We know that Vadim Kabanchuk, who recently served as deputy commander of the regiment, took a position in the Transitional Cabinet in August 2024. There are a number of veterans who joined the Coordination Council.
Another part of the Kalinovites has a negative attitude towards Tsikhanouskaya but is open to constructive dialogue. The Belarusian Volunteer Corps absolutely does not perceive her.
At the same time, volunteers are primarily servicemen. Statements about political views negatively affect their military affairs. When elections to the Coordination Council were held 2 years ago, our military leadership did not approve the participation of Belarusians in political processes. And this is logical. A volunteer, for the duration of their contract, must obey the orders of the command.
— How would you assess the mood in Belarusian society regarding the war?
— The overwhelming majority of Belarusians still remain on pacifist positions. Lukashenka attributes this to his achievements. He says that it is only thanks to him that Belarus did not directly enter the war.
I am concerned that over the years, the attitude towards us and our state is transforming. Changes are occurring under the influence of propaganda.
— Does water still wear away stone?
— Yes. These are the consequences of the work of both Russian and Belarusian regime propaganda. Currently, we have no communication with Belarusians. Unlike the times when Belarusians traveled through our territory to the sea.
— Belarus is a co-aggressor in this war. Will it pay reparations alongside Russia after our victory?
— This is not an easy question. Some compensation should be provided. A lot depends on what kind of Belarus we will be dealing with after the war.
Although we still don't know how the war will end. We currently have informational tension with Belarus. But what if a real confrontation occurs, and we take satisfaction at the expense of destroyed military-industrial complex facilities?
— We are destroying military-industrial complex facilities on Russian territory too, but that doesn't cancel out the fact that Russia will pay us reparations. You see, I asked this question because the Russians themselves are vehemently disowning reparations. They immediately backpedal, saying: "Uh, no. That's all Putin, we have nothing to do with it. What talks about reparations can there be?" I suspect Belarusians think similarly. So the question arises: gentlemen, who will pay us?
— Currently, we have a full-scale conventional war only with Russia. Belarus is a co-aggressor, but not an aggressor country.
Much will depend on its status at the end of the war. And, of course, the international situation.